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Unread 03-13-2013, 01:22 PM   #1
ureout
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Beltone VS. Phonak

Im looking for any info on quality of hearing between the Beltone Promise 9 and the Phonak Naida CRT I have severe hearing loss in both ears any info would be appreciated....Thx.
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Unread 03-14-2013, 07:56 AM   #2
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I personally would stay away from Beltone and Miracle Ear.
I have Phonak Naida IX UP and love them.
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Unread 03-15-2013, 12:11 PM   #3
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thx for your answer but why would you stay away from Beltone....anything specific?
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Unread 03-15-2013, 12:17 PM   #4
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loveblue...you have Nadia IX UP? im looking at nadia s crt same thing? also do you run multiple programs and use volume control? I now have HA"s that I do but technician that handles nadia's doesn't often use differnet programs or volume control for different settings...says he can do all with one? I live in Fla and often very breezy so i always have a proble with wind noise. Thx again for any info
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Unread 03-16-2013, 06:54 AM   #5
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Isn't Beltone like Miracle Ear in that its the only HA sold by them & they more into selling the product than helping the patient? Maybe I'm wrong about that.
I prefer to go to an Audi who provides different brands of HAs and is more concerned with helping me hear than selling me a product.
The IX' are the top if the line (or were when I got them). They have 5 programs & volume control. I have automatic, zoom, mute, speech in noise & t-coil programmed on mine. The programs can be changed just using one of the HAs button. The volume can be done the same way but I have the separate since my left ear is worse than my right so I can just adjust it without adjusting my right/better ear.
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Unread 03-16-2013, 09:49 AM   #6
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yes they just sell 1 brand but I wanted to try differnt brands...the 2nd Audi I went to seems to push phonak but does sell other stuff. I was just wondering if anyone else out there had any experiences with either Thx.
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Unread 05-27-2013, 10:44 PM   #7
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Beltone is generally staffed by salesmen rather than audiologists

Currently in 2013, Siemens, Starkey and Phonak consistently manufacturer the best aids on the market. Each manufacturer has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Beltone and Miracle Ear aren't even in the top 10. It is very rare to find an audiologist working at a Beltone or Miracle Ear Center. Instead, these franchise offices are typically staffed by hearing aid salesmen working on a commission basis. A hearing aid salesman, sometimes called a hearing aid specialist, typically has no college training or degree. Audiologists, after obtaining a bachelor's degree, receive 4 - 5 years extensive training at the post-graduate level specific to hearing loss and treatment. Any hearing aid will only sound as good as it is selected, pre-tested, and programmed by the hearing health care professional you choose to trust with your hearing and your hard earned money. At the very least:
1. Seek out a university trained audiologist
2. Seek an independently owned office. Avoid franchises and corporate owned offices (e.g., Beltone, Miracle Ear, Sonus, Hear USA, Audibel).
3. Make sure your hearing aids are custom programmed to your very unique ear and hearing loss. This can only be done in an office that utilizes Real Ear/Probe microphone verification (best to research these two synonymous terms).
4. Know that you're legally entitled to a 30 day money back guarantee no matter who fits your hearing aids or what his/her education and experience is.

Here's a website link for a Beltone job opening. Notice no training or experience is required, salesman should never take "no" for an answer, experience in car or computer sales is desirable, etc....

Sales and Marketing Jobs in Roseville, Michigan - Beltone Hearing Aid Centers
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Unread 06-01-2013, 01:25 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Audiologist View Post
Currently in 2013, Siemens, Starkey and Phonak consistently manufacturer the best aids on the market. Each manufacturer has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Beltone and Miracle Ear aren't even in the top 10. It is very rare to find an audiologist working at a Beltone or Miracle Ear Center. Instead, these franchise offices are typically staffed by hearing aid salesmen working on a commission basis. A hearing aid salesman, sometimes called a hearing aid specialist, typically has no college training or degree. Audiologists, after obtaining a bachelor's degree, receive 4 - 5 years extensive training at the post-graduate level specific to hearing loss and treatment. Any hearing aid will only sound as good as it is selected, pre-tested, and programmed by the hearing health care professional you choose to trust with your hearing and your hard earned money. At the very least:
1. Seek out a university trained audiologist
2. Seek an independently owned office. Avoid franchises and corporate owned offices (e.g., Beltone, Miracle Ear, Sonus, Hear USA, Audibel).
3. Make sure your hearing aids are custom programmed to your very unique ear and hearing loss. This can only be done in an office that utilizes Real Ear/Probe microphone verification (best to research these two synonymous terms).
4. Know that you're legally entitled to a 30 day money back guarantee no matter who fits your hearing aids or what his/her education and experience is.

Here's a website link for a Beltone job opening. Notice no training or experience is required, salesman should never take "no" for an answer, experience in car or computer sales is desirable, etc....

Sales and Marketing Jobs in Roseville, Michigan - Beltone Hearing Aid Centers
I have found that there are good and bad HIS just as there are good and bad audiologists. The best person I've ever had set up my hearing aids is a HIS who was also hearing impaired, she knows HA's inside and out and has basically hit it out of the park on the first try with no further adjustments needed after the initial programming. Several of the audiologist I have gone to have sounded more like used car salesman than "medical" professionals and have tried leading me to a specific HA which happened to be the most expensive and when questioned about other aids they sell will tell you yes they would work but then lead you back to the most expensive aids they sell.

All the education audiologist receive doesn't mean they will be a good audiologist, it just means they have jumped through the necessary hoops to be able to call themselves an audiologist and after all 50% of all audiologist finished their course work in the bottom half of their class. In the medical field, the doctors that finish in the bottom half of their class are still allowed to practice medicine provided they pass their boards, but the medical establishment hopes they go into research but this doesn't always happen. The same thing probably happens in the audiology field, there are probably audiologist who sell HA's that shouldn't be selling HA's but rather doing clinical work or research and there are some doing clinical work who should be selling hearing aids.

I do agree that you should avoid going to a franchise ie.Beltone and Miracle Ear, etc. your hearing needs will be better met elsewhere.

The most important thing to consider is going to someone you are comfortable with, who knows what they are doing and isn't trying to rip you off. Whether this person is a hearing instrument specialist or an audiologist makes no difference just as long as you get the right hearing aids and they are programmed to give you the best hearing you will be able to achieve.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 05:27 PM   #9
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Seb - now, that's great input.

Although when the rubber mets the road, it's difficult to find an exceptional audi that can assist you to select the best product for your hearing loss at an affordable price.

I'll bet even Costco has a few people that are exceptional in all areas with the products all reasonable in the area of cost. Actually, "going to someone you are comfortable with, who knows what they are doing and isn't trying to rip you off"- I fall short in that area every single day as I look for all kinds of products and services.
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Unread 07-30-2013, 11:27 PM   #10
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paragon,
I know several "fitters" at Costco who are exceptional at doing their job; one is an audiologist and the other a HIS. They both love working for Costco because all they have to do is show up and do their job, they don't have to worry about paying the rent and they have great benefits and no longer have to go broke to get health insurance. By the way they both wear HA's, so they know what you are talking about when you have a problem.
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Unread 08-05-2013, 08:19 PM   #11
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Audiologist

I knew a knucklehead audiologist in Martinsville, Virginia who, despite normal hearing, wore "dummy" hearing aids at work daily in a pathetic attempt to gain trust, empathy, and confidence from his "customers." Sure, go with the gal that wears hearing aids. There are too many problems with that "logic" to even get into, but, rest assured, Costco, Beltone, Miracle Ear, Sonus, HearUSA, etc... work on a commission basis. Here's a Miracle Ear employment ad online today. Note, they don't require an audiologist and refer to the Hearing Instrument Specialist (remember no high school diploma required) frankly as a Sales Consultant. Load up all the senior citizens in your family and "ACT NOW AS THIS IS A ONE TIME OFFER ONLY!"

America is Aging! Baby boomers are entering their 50's & 60's and our business is exploding! Miracle-Ear, the most recognized name in the hearing health care industry, is interviewing for a Hearing Instrument Specialist to join our team in the Bloomfield Hills, MI office.

We provide an excellent selection of products, front office support staff, a fully equipped professional office with existing patient base. We support our Sales Consultants with aggressive local and national advertising campaigns using multi-layered target marketing via Television, direct mail, & print ads.

The ideal candidate...
Has a solid presentation and closing method
Has a proven sales record
Builds customer base on superior customer service
Has excellent relationship building skills
Is Highly motivated to be a top performer
If you wish to help us to improve the quality of life for our customers, you may be the right person for our team! Please forward your resume to; hr@lifesoundsllc.com
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Unread 08-05-2013, 10:46 PM   #12
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[QUOTE=Audiologist;471]" rest assured, Costco, Beltone, Miracle Ear, Sonus, HearUSA, etc... work on a commission basis.

Everyone on your list but Costco I believe works on a commission basis. I know two people who work for Costco and they are paid a salary and a pretty good benefit package, but they receive no commission. This is why when you go to Costco there is no sales pressure put on the customer and they don't lead you to the highest priced HA they carry unlike many audiologist in private practice. They also have a 90 day trial and return policy where you will get 100% of your money back if you don't keep the HA's.
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Unread 08-05-2013, 11:58 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=Audiologist;400]

4. Know that you're legally entitled to a 30 day money back guarantee no matter who fits your hearing aids or what his/her education and experience is.

Audiologist,

This is only true in those states that have provisions on the books that require a trial period.

Those states according to the HLAA that don't require a trial period for hearing aids are: Arizona, Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, and Wyoming.

States with a 45 day trial mandated by law are: Minnesota, New York and Vermont.

Washington State has a full refund within 3 days and a 30 day trial less 15% or $150 whichever is less.
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Unread 08-12-2013, 09:05 PM   #14
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So, you like Costco hearing aids because your friends work there?

You don't have to be an audiologist to work at Costco. Hearing aid salesmen that work there are not required to have a high school diploma and must only pass a very, very simple BASIC skills test to get their sales license. Hmm... let's see a hearing doctor with 9 years of college training or a hearing aid salesman with a GED??? Costco offers "Free Hearing Tests*." The asterisk says, "for hearing aid purposes only" because hearing aid salesmen cannot perform a comprehensive hearing test. They can SCREEN hearing for hearing aid purposes only. The salesman cannot charge for their so called "test" nor can they bill your insurance company. THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO A MEDICAL OR EVEN A COMPREHENSIVE HEARING EVALUATION. The hearing aid salesman can't legally even remove wax from your ear. Get your hearing SCREENED at Costco. Let the salesman take impressions of your wax filled ears. Pick up a bag of dog food on your way out, and in two weeks trust your hearing to a salesman with no university training or degree. The sad thing is that Granny can hear better with a junk hearing aid or even a nice hearing aid poorly programmed by an idiot. By the way, research repeatedly demonstrates that 80% of all hearing aids are grossly misfit, underamplifying some sounds while overamplifying other sounds. Hmm... I suppose Granny should also get her false teeth from a denture salesman rather than a university trained dentist, her eyeglasses from an eyeglass salesman rather than an optometrist. Costco or not, the fact that hearing aid salesmen even exist is a joke. Granny, I hope you're listening. Before you go anywhere for a hearing aid evaluation call ahead to ensure you'll be seeing a university trained professional. Not only should the audiologist have a doctorate degree, but he/she should also be board certified by the American Speech, Language and Hearing Association. Hearing aid salesmen do not belong in health care.
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Unread 08-13-2013, 02:07 AM   #15
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You don't have to be an audiologist to work at Costco. Hearing aid salesmen that work there are not required to have a high school diploma and must only pass a very, very simple BASIC skills test to get their sales license. Hmm... let's see a hearing doctor with 9 years of college training or a hearing aid salesman with a GED??? Costco offers "Free Hearing Tests*." The asterisk says, "for hearing aid purposes only" because hearing aid salesmen cannot perform a comprehensive hearing test. They can SCREEN hearing for hearing aid purposes only. The salesman cannot charge for their so called "test" nor can they bill your insurance company. THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO A MEDICAL OR EVEN A COMPREHENSIVE HEARING EVALUATION. The hearing aid salesman can't legally even remove wax from your ear. Get your hearing SCREENED at Costco. Let the salesman take impressions of your wax filled ears. Pick up a bag of dog food on your way out, and in two weeks trust your hearing to a salesman with no university training or degree. The sad thing is that Granny can hear better with a junk hearing aid or even a nice hearing aid poorly programmed by an idiot. By the way, research repeatedly demonstrates that 80% of all hearing aids are grossly misfit, underamplifying some sounds while overamplifying other sounds. Hmm... I suppose Granny should also get her false teeth from a denture salesman rather than a university trained dentist, her eyeglasses from an eyeglass salesman rather than an optometrist. Costco or not, the fact that hearing aid salesmen even exist is a joke. Granny, I hope you're listening. Before you go anywhere for a hearing aid evaluation call ahead to ensure you'll be seeing a university trained professional. Not only should the audiologist have a doctorate degree, but he/she should also be board certified by the American Speech, Language and Hearing Association. Hearing aid salesmen do not belong in health care.
Audiologist,

You sound like someone who is losing to many patients to Costco and other establishments selling the same quality hearing aids for a lot less money than you are selling them for.

For your information, I know one audiologist who works for Costco and I know of several others in my area doing the same. They work there for the benefits and not having to sell x number of HA's to pay the rent, overhead, etc. thus less stress.

I've gone to audiologists and Costco for a hearing test and hearing aids and by far Costco was far more comprehensive that that received by any audiologist I have ever gone to.

Costco also asks the exact same questions on their patient questionnaire as my university trained audiologist does and if you answer yes to any of the questions you are referred to an ENT, just as you are if you are at an audiologist office and told to come back once you get cleared by an ENT. You are also referred to an ENT or a GP if you have to much ear wax and they will not give you a hearing test at that time and tell you to come back once you have your ears cleaned.

You say that 80% of ALL HA's are misfit. This one really has you sticking your foot in your mouth. I hope you aren't saying that all 80% are fit by HIS. I would guess that university trained audiologist are responsible for their fair share of the 80% of misfit aids. This is based on the fact that audiologist are responsible for fitting more than 20% of all HA's sold.

A good friend of mine who is a retired OB/GYN doctor once told me, " that 50% of all doctors finish in the bottom have of their class, but they are stilled allowed to call themselves doctor," and this can be said for audiologists also. He also said that the medical profession hopes that the ones finishing in the bottom half go into research but that doesn't always happen. As in any profession: there are good professionals and not so good ones and audiology is no different. Some audiologist who are dispensing hearing aids should be working in another area of audiology because they don't have the knowledge required to get them past the "first fit" of setting up a hearing aid and leave their patients with HA's that are misfit or simply left in a dresser drawer. This also goes for some HIS, but with them they are more likely to get drummed out of the business than a university trained audiologist who has a Ph.D., or M.S. Aud. after their name because another audiologist will not "rat out" a fellow audiologist who isn't good at programming hearing aids or doing his/her job.

T think what you audiologist need to do is clean up your profession and get the gougers and used car salesman out of selling hearing aids and only let those who understand how to program a hearing aid and show the knowledge needed to make the correct adjustments that are needed to give people HA's that aren't "misfit" sell them.

As for only going to a university trained audiologist: a family friend once told me," the only difference between a B.S., M.S. and Ph.D., was Bull s--t, More s--t and Piled higher and Deeper." And sad to say, some university trained audiologist don't belong in the health care industry either.

Last edited by seb; 08-13-2013 at 02:38 AM.
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Unread 08-19-2013, 09:55 PM   #16
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Siemens, Starkey, and Phonak are the top manufacturer's in the world. Never get a Beltone, Miracle Ear, or Audibel hearing aid. These are franchise dealers with only one brand (Beltone and Miracle Ear make junk aids) and Audibel only has Audibel (a rebranded Starkey). The Costco loving hearing aid salesmen, on these blogs are a joke. Costco is nothing. Costco is not a hearing aid manufacturer. Costco is not an audiologist. Costco does not manufacturer hearing aid performance verification tools. Costco can not help anyone hear better. Costco is nothing but a sign, a storefront, a chain of retail outlets that share central management. If these salesmen understood the vast diversity of hearing impairment, hearing aid technologies, prescriptive fitting rationales, hearing aid verification techniques, maximum aided benefit potential, electroacoustic variables etc... they wouldn't be going on and on about virtues of Costco. Costco is irrelevant to a strategic, science based, hearing aid fitting. That's all they know, so that's all they can talk about. These "experts" aren't even legally allowed to do a diagnostic/comprehensive hearing test. They can't charge for a hearing test or bill your insurance for a hearing test because they don't even know what a diagnostic hearing test consist of let alone how to perform one. They can't legally even remove a small piece of wax from your ear. These salesmen shouldn't be allowed to work in healthcare. They're frauds. They don't even seem to recognize it... as the saying goes, "ignorance is bliss." C-O-S-T-C-O!!! C-O-S-T-C-O!!! Rah! Rah! Rah! What's that spell? Actually nothing. These guys should be reading textbooks with their time not blogging about things they don't understand. If your only options are Beltone or Phonak, the Phonak is a far superior instrument. Unfortunately, it will only sound as good as the person who programs it, and, like these guys, there are a lot of frauds out there. Good luck. You have a 20% chance of being responsibly/accurately fit with a hearing aid in this country.
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Unread 08-19-2013, 10:53 PM   #17
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Siemens, Starkey, and Phonak are the top manufacturer's in the world. Never get a Beltone, Miracle Ear, or Audibel hearing aid. These are franchise dealers with only one brand (Beltone and Miracle Ear make junk aids) and Audibel only has Audibel (a rebranded Starkey). The Costco loving hearing aid salesmen, on these blogs are a joke. Costco is nothing. Costco is not a hearing aid manufacturer. Costco is not an audiologist. Costco does not manufacturer hearing aid performance verification tools. Costco can not help anyone hear better. Costco is nothing but a sign, a storefront, a chain of retail outlets that share central management. If these salesmen understood the vast diversity of hearing impairment, hearing aid technologies, prescriptive fitting rationales, hearing aid verification techniques, maximum aided benefit potential, electroacoustic variables etc... they wouldn't be going on and on about virtues of Costco. Costco is irrelevant to a strategic, science based, hearing aid fitting. That's all they know, so that's all they can talk about. These "experts" aren't even legally allowed to do a diagnostic/comprehensive hearing test. They can't charge for a hearing test or bill your insurance for a hearing test because they don't even know what a diagnostic hearing test consist of let alone how to perform one. They can't legally even remove a small piece of wax from your ear. These salesmen shouldn't be allowed to work in healthcare. They're frauds. They don't even seem to recognize it... as the saying goes, "ignorance is bliss." C-O-S-T-C-O!!! C-O-S-T-C-O!!! Rah! Rah! Rah! What's that spell? Actually nothing. These guys should be reading textbooks with their time not blogging about things they don't understand. If your only options are Beltone or Phonak, the Phonak is a far superior instrument. Unfortunately, it will only sound as good as the person who programs it, and, like these guys, there are a lot of frauds out there. Good luck. You have a 20% chance of being responsibly/accurately fit with a hearing aid in this country.
Audiologist, for someone who espouses the virtues of science, your post is shockingly ignorant.

What evidence do you have that Siemens, Starkey, and Phonak are the "top" manufacturers. This is just your personal opinion. There are plenty of other hearing professionals who would disagree with you.

Beltone hearing aids are made by ReSound, arguably one of the "top" manufacturers. And Miracle Ear sells rebranded Siemens instruments. Calling them "junk" is outrageous.

Your Costco rant leaves me speechless. I hate to say it, but you seem like a nutcase.
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Unread 08-19-2013, 11:13 PM   #18
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Siemens, Starkey, and Phonak are the top manufacturer's in the world. Never get a Beltone, Miracle Ear, or Audibel hearing aid. These are franchise dealers with only one brand (Beltone and Miracle Ear make junk aids) and Audibel only has Audibel (a rebranded Starkey). The Costco loving hearing aid salesmen, on these blogs are a joke. Costco is nothing. Costco is not a hearing aid manufacturer. Costco is not an audiologist. Costco does not manufacturer hearing aid performance verification tools. Costco can not help anyone hear better. Costco is nothing but a sign, a storefront, a chain of retail outlets that share central management. If these salesmen understood the vast diversity of hearing impairment, hearing aid technologies, prescriptive fitting rationales, hearing aid verification techniques, maximum aided benefit potential, electroacoustic variables etc... they wouldn't be going on and on about virtues of Costco. Costco is irrelevant to a strategic, science based, hearing aid fitting. That's all they know, so that's all they can talk about. These "experts" aren't even legally allowed to do a diagnostic/comprehensive hearing test. They can't charge for a hearing test or bill your insurance for a hearing test because they don't even know what a diagnostic hearing test consist of let alone how to perform one. They can't legally even remove a small piece of wax from your ear. These salesmen shouldn't be allowed to work in healthcare. They're frauds. They don't even seem to recognize it... as the saying goes, "ignorance is bliss." C-O-S-T-C-O!!! C-O-S-T-C-O!!! Rah! Rah! Rah! What's that spell? Actually nothing. These guys should be reading textbooks with their time not blogging about things they don't understand. If your only options are Beltone or Phonak, the Phonak is a far superior instrument. Unfortunately, it will only sound as good as the person who programs it, and, like these guys, there are a lot of frauds out there. Good luck. You have a 20% chance of being responsibly/accurately fit with a hearing aid in this country.

And once again you said it best ," you only have a 20% chance of being responsibly/accurately fit with a hearing aid in this country" and from that comment it doesn't seem to make a difference if you go to an audiologist or a hearing instrument specialist to get hearing aids because you only have a 1 in 5 chance of being fit correctly by either one. Yes, audiologist pay a lot of money to go to school so they can be called an audiologist, but they don't spend all their time in school learning about or programming hearing aids and I would bet they spend about the same amount of time learning how to program hearing aids as do people learning to be a hearing instrument specialist in many states.

I also think you left some of the best manufacturers off the list of top manufacturers in the world: Oticon, Bernafon, Widex, and Resound I think would also make the list, but I guess we can figure out what hearing aids you sell when you say "Seimens, Starkey and Phonak are the top manufacturers."

You do have one thing right when you say "never get a Beltone, Audibel or Miracle Ear hearing aids. I too would never go to Beltone, Audibel or Miracle Ear for hearing aids. Not because they are bad HA's but because you are locked into going to only them for adjustments and service. With Costco you get a pretty thorough hearing test(better than I have ever got at any audiologist) and they have the same hearing aids made by Rexton(Charismo 2c), Bernafon (Acriva 9), and the Resound (Forza)and come September, it will be the Verso's ands these are HA's that some audiologist also sell but at a much higher price, and these are not rebranded aids. The one exception is the Kirkland Signature HA that I believe is currently made by Rexton and is the same aid as the Cobalt 16.

I'm sorry if you are losing patients and money to Costco or Sam's for that matter, but until you are willing to sell the same hearing aids, give the same 90 day trial, 100% return policy and the great warranty that they do for the same price, your going to lose patients because why would someone go to someplace to get the same hearing aids at twice the price from someone who has the same rate of failure as a HIS. Contrary to what most audiologist seem to believe, we are not all made of money and yes, $6,000 is a lot of money! It's also a lot of money to have sitting in a drawer when an audiologist doesn't get them programmed correctly 80% of the time and has an unhappy patient, and it would be better to go to someplace and only have half the amount spent on something if it's going to be sitting in a drawer someplace, but with Costco at least you have 90 days to figure out if you are going to like your hearing aids. Finally, I don't work for them I only have bought from them and no mine aren't in a drawer!

Last edited by seb; 08-20-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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Unread 08-20-2013, 12:07 AM   #19
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Audiologist, for someone who espouses the virtues of science, your post is shockingly ignorant.

What evidence do you have that Siemens, Starkey, and Phonak are the "top" manufacturers. This is just your personal opinion. There are plenty of other hearing professionals who would disagree with you.

Beltone hearing aids are made by ReSound, arguably one of the "top" manufacturers. And Miracle Ear sells rebranded Siemens instruments. Calling them "junk" is outrageous.

Your Costco rant leaves me speechless. I hate to say it, but you seem like a nutcase.
Rasmus,

It also sounds like someone losing a lot of business to these other sellers and is not real happy about it. He may be also be having regrets about spending all that money going to school, when he could of spent a lot less time and money in becoming a hearing instrument specialist if he only wanted to sell hearing aids and began his career a lot earlier.
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Unread 08-20-2013, 10:43 AM   #20
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You don't have to be an audiologist to work at Costco. Hearing aid salesmen that work there are not required to have a high school diploma and must only pass a very, very simple BASIC skills test to get their sales license. Hmm... let's see a hearing doctor with 9 years of college training or a hearing aid salesman with a GED??? Costco offers "Free Hearing Tests*." The asterisk says, "for hearing aid purposes only" because hearing aid salesmen cannot perform a comprehensive hearing test. They can SCREEN hearing for hearing aid purposes only. The salesman cannot charge for their so called "test" nor can they bill your insurance company. THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DO A MEDICAL OR EVEN A COMPREHENSIVE HEARING EVALUATION. The hearing aid salesman can't legally even remove wax from your ear. Get your hearing SCREENED at Costco. Let the salesman take impressions of your wax filled ears. Pick up a bag of dog food on your way out, and in two weeks trust your hearing to a salesman with no university training or degree. The sad thing is that Granny can hear better with a junk hearing aid or even a nice hearing aid poorly programmed by an idiot. By the way, research repeatedly demonstrates that 80% of all hearing aids are grossly misfit, underamplifying some sounds while overamplifying other sounds. Hmm... I suppose Granny should also get her false teeth from a denture salesman rather than a university trained dentist, her eyeglasses from an eyeglass salesman rather than an optometrist. Costco or not, the fact that hearing aid salesmen even exist is a joke. Granny, I hope you're listening. Before you go anywhere for a hearing aid evaluation call ahead to ensure you'll be seeing a university trained professional. Not only should the audiologist have a doctorate degree, but he/she should also be board certified by the American Speech, Language and Hearing Association. Hearing aid salesmen do not belong in health care.
Audiologist,

Now here is another one of your problem posts. You say "lets see a hearing doctor with 9 years of college training or a hearing aid salesman with a GED???" In a previous post you said you received 4-5 years of extensive training at the post graduate level specific to hearing loss and treatment. Which is it 9 years or 4-5 years? It now sounds like you went to some college that for 9 years was giving you training in audiology. Secondly, aren't you both basically hearing aid salesmen, since you are both in the business of just selling hearing aids? You need to come off your high horse and realize that there are good HIS out there just as there are good audiologist too. Just because they choose to go another route to get to the same end doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. A good friend of mine who is a retired doctor once told me medical school was nothing more than monkey see, monkey do, and I'm sure your audiology training followed a similar path, and by the way my friend gets his hearing aids at Costco and is very happy with the person he sees there and he was and is an MD. In other words he went to many years of college too.

Last edited by seb; 08-22-2013 at 12:56 AM.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 08:20 PM   #21
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There you go again… blogging about nothing when you should be spending that time with your nose buried in textbooks. Don’t pretend to give advice to persons with hearing impairment when you don’t know the difference between critical bands and frequency bands. I've been running ANSI an insitu tests on every hearing aid I've encountered for the past 15 years. If you knew how to objectively test hearing aids, you would understand there are obvious objective differences... yours is simply opinion. I'm also the only audiologist I've ever known who worked at a Miracle Ear (less than 4 months before I bolted from that sham & I could tell you some unbelievable stories).
1. How do auditory filters and masking affect hearing aid outcomes?
2. How does middle ear impedance affect upward spread of masking, gain requirements, acoustic feedback and the application of electroacoustic parameters such as directional microphone roll-off and expansion?
3. How can acoustic reflex thresholds be implemented to ensure a more responsible hearing aid fitting?
4. Do three identical hearing losses require identical hearing aid programming regardless of whether the loss is due to viral labyrinthitis, acoustic trauma, or Meniere’s?
5. How does degree of loss affect compression kneepoint settings?
6. Should Loudness Discomfort Levels (LDSs) alter attack and/or release compression settings?
7. Should the absence of Otoacoustic Emissions be considered when establishing compression kneepoint and compression ratio settings? If so, how?
8. How do binaural squelch and binaural summation differ, and how do they apply to choosing and programming hearing aid parameters? Can anyone wearing hearing aids benefit from these phenomena?
9. Has scientific research demonstrated reliable aided benefit from transcranial CROS systems?
10. How much threshold asymmetry (and at what frequencies) warrant referral to an otolaryngologist?
11. What study provides test/retest range of variability data for any speech discrimination score?
12. What’s the acceptable tolerance for ANSI S3.22-2003 HFA-OSPL 90?
13. How is HFA-FOG determined?
14. When are EIN Equivalent Input Noise standards of little/no value during a responsible hearing aid fitting?
15. How can Speech In Noise tests be properly utilized to select and program hearing aid parameters?
16. What are the primary differences between NAL-NL1, DSL-m(IO), CAM2 & NAL-NL2? When is one particular prescriptive rationale most likely to be chosen and why?
17. When should ultra-high frequencies (>8kHz) be measured?

These are just a couple random questions off the top of my head that probably weren’t covered in your simpleton’s hearing aid sales exam manual. If I cared to spend the time, I could probably ask you nearly 1000 similar questions WHICH SHOULD ALL BE BASIC KNOWLEDGE CONSIDERING YOUR HEARING AID SALES JOB. If you can’t readily answer these questions (I’ll say it again), you need to quit trying to give people hearing aid advice and start reading some textbooks. You’re simply wasting your time, their time, my time, and giving IGNORANT advice to people who don't know any better. If you can even answer half correctly, I'll give you 50 more. Freakin' impostors! You don't even know the questions let alone the answers.
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Unread 08-26-2013, 08:40 PM   #22
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Actually, if you could "think" your way above functional illiteracy, you wouldn't be in this state of oblivion to begin with. Stop blogging... start studying. I feel badly for people trusting you with their hearing healthcare needs. I'm outta here!
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Unread 08-26-2013, 10:09 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Audiologist View Post
Actually, if you could "think" your way above functional illiteracy, you wouldn't be in this state of oblivion to begin with. Stop blogging... start studying. I feel badly for people trusting you with their hearing healthcare needs. I'm outta here!
Audiologist,

Very impressive bit of knowledge, but I would hope you would have committed all this to memory over doing the same thing for the last 15 years, I would bet a HIS specialist would also amassed an equally impressive bit of knowledge with 15 years of experience too. However, I hope your not answering my post because I'm not a HIS and I don't work at Costco. I just have found your arrogance and self righteousness to be kind of sickening. I also think Rasmus hit the nail on the head with his comment. As I said previously you keep sticking your foot in your mouth with various comments and I will stay with my simple statement: that there are good and bad audiologist as well as good and bad HIS. As you have continuously said" you only have a 20% chance of getting your HA's programmed correctly," and that must go for audiologist as well as HIS, so it doesn't matter which one you go to you only have a 1 in 5 chance coming out with HA's set up correctly. However, if you go to Costco, you are only going to spend about half what you would charge and you would have 90 days to decide if you want to keep the aids or get ALL your money back. You obviously seem to know what your doing or at least think you do, although, with your attitude you are probably one of those audiologist who think they are so far advanced over their fellow audiologist that they think they can charge several thousand dollars more than their competition because they think they are so good. Enough said!

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Unread 08-27-2013, 02:06 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Audiologist View Post
There you go again… blogging about nothing when you should be spending that time with your nose buried in textbooks. Don’t pretend to give advice to persons with hearing impairment when you don’t know the difference between critical bands and frequency bands. I've been running ANSI an insitu tests on every hearing aid I've encountered for the past 15 years. If you knew how to objectively test hearing aids, you would understand there are obvious objective differences... yours is simply opinion. I'm also the only audiologist I've ever known who worked at a Miracle Ear (less than 4 months before I bolted from that sham & I could tell you some unbelievable stories).
1. How do auditory filters and masking affect hearing aid outcomes?
2. How does middle ear impedance affect upward spread of masking, gain requirements, acoustic feedback and the application of electroacoustic parameters such as directional microphone roll-off and expansion?
3. How can acoustic reflex thresholds be implemented to ensure a more responsible hearing aid fitting?
4. Do three identical hearing losses require identical hearing aid programming regardless of whether the loss is due to viral labyrinthitis, acoustic trauma, or Meniere’s?
5. How does degree of loss affect compression kneepoint settings?
6. Should Loudness Discomfort Levels (LDSs) alter attack and/or release compression settings?
7. Should the absence of Otoacoustic Emissions be considered when establishing compression kneepoint and compression ratio settings? If so, how?
8. How do binaural squelch and binaural summation differ, and how do they apply to choosing and programming hearing aid parameters? Can anyone wearing hearing aids benefit from these phenomena?
9. Has scientific research demonstrated reliable aided benefit from transcranial CROS systems?
10. How much threshold asymmetry (and at what frequencies) warrant referral to an otolaryngologist?
11. What study provides test/retest range of variability data for any speech discrimination score?
12. What’s the acceptable tolerance for ANSI S3.22-2003 HFA-OSPL 90?
13. How is HFA-FOG determined?
14. When are EIN Equivalent Input Noise standards of little/no value during a responsible hearing aid fitting?
15. How can Speech In Noise tests be properly utilized to select and program hearing aid parameters?
16. What are the primary differences between NAL-NL1, DSL-m(IO), CAM2 & NAL-NL2? When is one particular prescriptive rationale most likely to be chosen and why?
17. When should ultra-high frequencies (>8kHz) be measured?

These are just a couple random questions off the top of my head that probably weren’t covered in your simpleton’s hearing aid sales exam manual. If I cared to spend the time, I could probably ask you nearly 1000 similar questions WHICH SHOULD ALL BE BASIC KNOWLEDGE CONSIDERING YOUR HEARING AID SALES JOB. If you can’t readily answer these questions (I’ll say it again), you need to quit trying to give people hearing aid advice and start reading some textbooks. You’re simply wasting your time, their time, my time, and giving IGNORANT advice to people who don't know any better. If you can even answer half correctly, I'll give you 50 more. Freakin' impostors! You don't even know the questions let alone the answers.
First of all, I don't believe for one second that these questions came off the top of your head. Since you seem to be fond of telling people to study textbooks, I'm guessing that you cribbed the questions from someone else's work.

Second, most of the topics you brought up are very esoteric and have little or no relevance to actual, real-life dispensing of modern hearing aids. The answers to your questions will not make or break any hearing aid fitting.

Simply put, the vast majority of people seeking amplification have straightforward sensorineural hearing loss and will be adequately served by a hearing instrument specialist who has the appropriate training and experience. Going to an audiologist in those cases would be overkill. Just like going to an ophthalmologist for an optical prescription.

I don't know why you have such animosity toward other hearing professionals, but you should consider anger management training. You remind me of those surgeons we sometimes read about in the news who scream and throw temper tantrums in the operating room because they think they're such hot shots and no one is willing to confront them about their behavior.

Last edited by rasmus_braun; 08-27-2013 at 04:22 PM.
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Unread 08-27-2013, 02:33 PM   #25
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Rasmus,
You've got to admit it's an impressive list, but I'm with you in believing he was pouring over the textbooks to come up with the list, since it took him a week to respond.

My mother worked with a surgeon who despite finding his cancer early, would not let anyone operate on him because he felt no one, not even his own son was capable of operating on him, so he died. Does sound like something our audiologist friend would do, doesn't it!
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Unread 08-27-2013, 04:14 PM   #26
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Rasmus,
You've got to admit it's an impressive list, but I'm with you in believing he was pouring over the textbooks to come up with the list, since it took him a week to respond.
seb, I know the list looks impressive because of the technical jargon, but almost none of it matters in real life. For example, question number 6 about attack and release times. What manufacturer's software allows you to change this in any direct manner? None. These topics will have little or no impact on the practitioner who's trying to fit a hearing aid.
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Unread 08-28-2013, 01:11 AM   #27
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seb, I know the list looks impressive because of the technical jargon, but almost none of it matters in real life. For example, question number 6 about attack and release times. What manufacturer's software allows you to change this in any direct manner? None. These topics will have little or no impact on the practitioner who's trying to fit a hearing aid.
To tell you the truth, I didn't even read his list, just scanned over it. I figured he was just trying to impress us with his knowledge and overblown ego. The sad part is that he and others like him are a large part of the problem with our nations healthcare industry: they think they have a right to charge whatever they want and they feel they should be the only people allowed to fit HA's because of going to college for 9 years. I have to do a search of where he is located and what parking lot he's working in, because I think with his ego he would have trouble getting his head through the door, at least when he asks his patients "how does that sound?" They will know because they will be out in the real world, not in a quiet office. Could you imagine going to this guy for your hearing needs? I can't!

An old family friend has had his share of these types of audiologists and has a drawer full of hearing aids to prove it,and after spending a ton of money over the years on HA's, I told him to go to one particular Costco and see if this guy(HIS) could help him out and after going, he called me to say thank you and said this guy got him hearing better than he had in years!
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Unread 08-30-2013, 01:07 PM   #28
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Beltone is essentially GN Resound product. It is good product, but the #1 thing is who fits the hearing aid. All other things being equal, I would give the slight edge to Phonak on this one. Resound is strong in wireless (cell phone, accessories) technology, but might be lacking in other areas. Good luck in your search!

Best Prices on Hearing Aids - Local Care included - See Prices Now!
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Unread 08-31-2013, 10:34 AM   #29
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Beware hearing aid salesmen in labcoats!!!

Yup!!! You did't even know the questions let alone the answers. I'm tired of watching 80% of you grossly misfit hearing aids. It is simply unethical and sad that you untrained, unqualified salesmen are legally allowed to affect someone's hearing. You think these questions are esoteric and unrelated to the real world use of amplification? That's my point! You call it arrogance. Of course you're going to say it's esoteric, irrelevant, and arrogant because you don't simply don't know the facts... you don't know the difference. There's nothing else you could say. You cry "arrogant." I call it educated and experienced enough to see that you're too ignorant to realize your ignorance. This is my last entry as you apparently have no interest in science based skill sets within your own profession. ANYONE OUT THERE WITH HEARING LOSS:
1. FIND A DOCTOR OF AUDIOLOGY
2. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY UNTRAINED HEARING AID SALESMAN IN LABCOATS
3. NEVER PURCHASE FROM A FRANCHISE (Beltone, Miracle Ear, Audibel)
4. MAKE SURE THE AUDIOLOGIST PERFORMS "REAL EAR MEASURES"
5 JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HEAR BETTER WITH A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID... IT'S STILL A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID
6 GOOD LUCK. THE BLOGGERS ON THIS SITE SHOULD GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU'RE LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER
7 BY LAW, YOU HAVE AT LEAST 30 DAYS TO RETURN YOUR AIDS FOR A REFUND. YOU CAN SIMPLY GO SOMEWHERE ELSE
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Unread 08-31-2013, 12:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Audiologist View Post
Yup!!! You did't even know the questions let alone the answers. I'm tired of watching 80% of you grossly misfit hearing aids. It is simply unethical and sad that you untrained, unqualified salesmen are legally allowed to affect someone's hearing. You think these questions are esoteric and unrelated to the real world use of amplification? That's my point! You call it arrogance. Of course you're going to say it's esoteric, irrelevant, and arrogant because you don't simply don't know the facts... you don't know the difference. There's nothing else you could say. You cry "arrogant." I call it educated and experienced enough to see that you're too ignorant to realize your ignorance. This is my last entry as you apparently have no interest in science based skill sets within your own profession. ANYONE OUT THERE WITH HEARING LOSS:
1. FIND A DOCTOR OF AUDIOLOGY
2. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY UNTRAINED HEARING AID SALESMAN IN LABCOATS
3. NEVER PURCHASE FROM A FRANCHISE (Beltone, Miracle Ear, Audibel)
4. MAKE SURE THE AUDIOLOGIST PERFORMS "REAL EAR MEASURES"
5 JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN HEAR BETTER WITH A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID... IT'S STILL A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID
6 GOOD LUCK. THE BLOGGERS ON THIS SITE SHOULD GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU'RE LIKELY TO ENCOUNTER
7 BY LAW, YOU HAVE AT LEAST 30 DAYS TO RETURN YOUR AIDS FOR A REFUND. YOU CAN SIMPLY GO SOMEWHERE ELSE
You may be a truly gifted and caring audiologist, but even you make mistakes and show your ignorance. I have no issues with audiologist as a whole as long as they know what they are doing, leave the used car salesmen approach at home and don't gouge their clients.

You say, "you are tired of watching 80% of you( I guess HIS?) grossly misfit hearing aids." I want to know where and what published article or study you are getting your facts from or is this based again on your personal opinion regarding the 80% being misfit and how your theory is only HIS are responsible for misfitting HA's because they aren't university trained. Of the three studies I have seen on the subject they found no statistical difference between audiologist and HIS with regard to properly fitting hearing aids.

Regarding #4 This should happen without even asking, however, from this as well as other hearing aid sites, it isn't done with every patient and audiologists who are in your opinion the best trained fail to do this test on a good number of their patients and only run it if the patient has problems. On the "Hearing Aid Forums" one audiologist said they never perform it because the equipment is "to costly and todays hearing aid programming software runs checks on the settings constantly." So obviously, this audiologist didn't graduate from the school you went to. And to even mention it here, you obviously know that most of your brethren don't run it, but wait, they are a "UNIVERSITY TRAINED" and must of been taught that this is standard operating procedure and must be done with each and every patient.

Regarding #7, There is NO FEDERAL LAW REQUIRING THIS and you ONLY HAVE 30 DAYS IN THOSE STATES THAT MANDATE IT BY LAW! and 19 states have no statutes on their books! I included the list earlier in the thread listing those states that don't have ANY TRIAL statute on the books and three states: Minnesota, New York and Vermont that have a 45 day trial period mandated by law. However, at Costco and Sam's Club you get a 90 day trial and 100% of your money back if you return the HA's. Unfortunately, through my reading on this and several other hearing aid sites I find people seem to have more problems with an audiologist not being able to get their hearing aids right than with a hearing instrument specialist.

Regarding all of your posts here , they seem to be based on personal opinion and and misinformation rather than scientific fact, which you claim to be a follower of. For instance, under what study did you find that Siemens, Starkey and Phonak manufacture the best hearing aids on the market? Do you have a study you can share with us saying they are the best or is these the HA's you sell and are therefore the best in your opinion? Since Beltone is made by Resound and Miracle Ear is rebranded Siemens (one of the best in your opinion) hearing aids then how can they also be "A PIECE OF CRAP HEARING AID" too? Finally, while you were working toward your audiology degree how much of the 4-5 years where spent fitting hearing aids and how much have you learned in the 15 years you have been a practicing audiologist?

Back to the One last tidbit you have preached over and over and must be remembered is: " YOU ONLY HAVE A 20% CHANCE OF GETTING HEARING AIDS THAT ARE PROPERLY PROGRAMMED TO YOUR HEARING LOSS " and based on the number of people with hearing loss and hearing aids and the number of audiologists and HIS, this 20% is probably shared on a fairly equal basis by the two fitters. So, if this is the case, it doesn't make sense to pay an audiologist $6,000 for a pair of hearing aids when they can go to someplace like Costco and get the same HA's for $3,000 and have the same odds of coming out with hearing aids that are correctly set for their hearing loss. Because after all, $6,000 is a lot of money to have stashed in a drawer somewhere!

If this is truly your last post I want to say I will miss you, you have been very entertaining and even a little scary with your various tirades( C-O-S-T-C-O -----C-O-S-T-C-O ) comes to mind which showed that you may be a little unstable, but if this is it, Good bye audiologist, we will miss you!

Last edited by seb; 09-01-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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